aptosid.com

Anything Goes - thread quarantined!

devil - 10.06.2011, 20:00
Post subject: thread quarantined!
the following thread was posted by Ayla and quarantined by the team:
      Quote:
Hi,

after an issues in the past with aptosid.de, now what happened in this thread was the point for me to make a decision.

Aptosid is a great distribution. I did and do enjoy it very much and I have learned a lot here. Many thanks to all of you for this.

I have accepted the forum policies when I have created my account. But now I can't understand and -this is the leading point- I can't accept the decisions made by members of the team anymore.

So in consequence I beg a moderator to delete my account or set in inactive, whatever the procedure is you prefere.

greets
ayla Sad


so, what is wrong with this thread?

greetz
devil
gerd - 10.06.2011, 20:24
Post subject: RE: thread quarantined!
Serious question?
I'm not a team member but i had deleted it too.
Where is the point, where is a concrete point she critizes? Where is at least one point that can be answered? Which tean decision(s) she talk about?

So i see the only sense to start a flame war.
devil - 10.06.2011, 20:40
Post subject: RE: thread quarantined!
did you read the (closed) thread ayla was referring to?
ayla was around for years, always constructive and helpful.
i am sad, he left. i am astonished, that threads with the slightest criticism (even just explaining why he leaves)are removed from the public.
but slam just told me on IRC, its not my business, because i also left the team (not the distro)
but users dont count. so, if thats ok with you, fine. its not for me.

greetz
devil
gerd - 10.06.2011, 20:55
Post subject: RE: thread quarantined!
As there is no link in your and aylas text, i don't know which thread you are talking about. Do you have a link?
towo - 10.06.2011, 20:56
Post subject: RE: thread quarantined!
http://aptosid.com/index.php?name=PNphp ... amp;t=1360
gerd - 10.06.2011, 21:06
Post subject: RE: thread quarantined!
thx for the link. i see the problem. and so i can understand aylas post now.
xetaprime - 10.06.2011, 22:36
Post subject: RE: thread quarantined!
OY! Earlier I posted a short 'what was so bad' post that they would lock Remastersys for 'personal attacks'. Before reading this-here I logged in and removed my post as I'm not a good whiner (fingers crossed behind my back) and then read your post :0 Was the Remastersys thread the last straw for Ayla?

If so, Idk, I just am sad too. I didn't come here cause any bad vibes but from the posts in my thread I gather the 'team' can get heavy handed? I haven't read many previous threads yet. I tried Aptosid a few times and loved it's speed and I'm not even sure why I didn't stay with it. I know the last time was because I couldn't install emodules-all and at the time had not learned how to svn anything.

I feel like I should say I'm sorry. But as I wrote in the post I removed, I've been to enough forums where I've settled in and things have gone wrong- and they do affect me. Even hurt because I build friendships and form bonds (sigh).

All I can say is I wish everyone a happy Linux journey. I wish after all this time it was more user friendly to those who have no clue about a command line so they too could experience Linux without such a learning curve and that's off-topic Wink

okay then
devil - 10.06.2011, 23:08
Post subject: RE: thread quarantined!
dont worry, its none of your fault.
remastersys is not a good tool, but it took you where you wanted to go.
remastersys is re-mastering, pyfll is mastering.
aptosid is technicaly great, social skills are lacking a bit.

greetz
devil
dibl - 11.06.2011, 01:19
Post subject: Re: RE: thread quarantined!
      devil wrote:

aptosid is technicaly great, social skills are lacking a bit.

greetz
devil



+1
phen - 11.06.2011, 01:20
Post subject: RE: thread quarantined!
aptosid is kickin butt, which is the one reason for why I kept working and making efforts to keep it my main OS, even though Arch was close to replace it.

And how could I contradict, I unfortunately have to agree with devil, ways on how to face users in here appears to me a style I have to wonder and shake my head more and more as time passes. slam, what has changed over the last years that made you meanwhile apparently act like one of those cold-blooded lawyers that only peek at profit?
I am not aiming for trolling, just I am bewildered!
se7en - 11.06.2011, 01:26
Post subject:
I guess the only thing one could say did wrong is corner "the team".
      Quote:
If I may ask, how are you legally responsible for a link posted by a forum member when it is clear that the distro is not an Aptosid release and you've made it clear you don't support it?

To question the last resort "legal issues" is not a good idea especially if it can't be answered.
I am sorry but people leaving has become quit common in this forum. Maybe one good question would be why.

A tip: no people in a forum would be 100% legally save. Smile
DeepDayze - 11.06.2011, 01:57
Post subject:
Ayla's one great poster and its a shame he's left. Very good point devil, I don't get it why xetaprime also was being attacked for his choice of tools and you did make a good point about using pyfll but he didn't know where to start. Xetaprime wanted to make a remaster of aptosid and he wanted to do it right so why was he attacked? The insensitivity on the staff's part just showed that they don't tolerate anyone looking to improve aptosid or make a better derivate of it. All xeta wanted was to do the project right and not step on a lot of toes that's why he was asking questions on how to go about his project.

The legal issues would be covered if xeta asks for permission for artwork and such and also provided the sources for all the components as well. Also giving credit to the aptosid team and any contributors to his project will also fulfill the legal requirements. So what real legal issues are there aside from these? As long as xeta abides by the GPL and gives credit where its due he should be in the clear. In fact he wasn't intending to share his work just was doing this as a little side project.

EDIT: Concur with phen that aptosid's a solid distro but the people behind it are not quite a social group. From what I been reading there has been no personal attacks on the staff just constructive criticism.
otto - 11.06.2011, 04:32
Post subject: Re: RE: thread quarantined!
      devil wrote:
did you read the (closed) thread ayla was referring to?
ayla was around for years, always constructive and helpful.
i am sad, he left. i am astonished, that threads with the slightest criticism (even just explaining why he leaves)are removed from the public.
but slam just told me on IRC, its not my business, because i also left the team (not the distro)
but users dont count. so, if thats ok with you, fine. its not for me.

greetz
devil


Shocked
I agreed with you.I woudn't like to judge anyone because It's not easy to be either a moderator nor an administrator. But I haven't seen any motive to be quarantined that thread by chance.
cheers.
Confused
dibl - 11.06.2011, 14:05
Post subject:
It is not carved in stone that aptosid users can only communicate with each other about aptosid on the official forum.

If there was a lot of support for a more informal, unofficial forum, which would allow the topics to digress into "unsupported" subjects and configurations, then I don't think it would be a huge problem to set it up. I'm not personally proficient with forum software, but there are very cheap hosting services out there, with servers located in less hostile territory, and I would definitely be a financial supporter if others were willing and able to make technical contributions. Of course, there would still have to be rules to enforce compliance with anti-piracy and outright illegal activities -- meaning there would still have to be moderation. I would be willing to do that, too, if there were others equally willing.

My two cents' worth. Smile
DeepDayze - 11.06.2011, 14:16
Post subject:
      dibl wrote:
It is not carved in stone that aptosid users can only communicate with each other about aptosid on the official forum.

If there was a lot of support for a more informal, unofficial forum, which would allow the topics to digress into "unsupported" subjects and configurations, then I don't think it would be a huge problem to set it up. I'm not personally proficient with forum software, but there are very cheap hosting services out there, with servers located in less hostile territory, and I would definitely be a financial supporter if others were willing and able to make technical contributions. Of course, there would still have to be rules to enforce compliance with anti-piracy and outright illegal activities -- meaning there would still have to be moderation. I would be willing to do that, too, if there were others equally willing.

My two cents' worth. Smile


That's what I thought the "Scripts and Dragons" section was for...to discuss experimental and unsupported things in an environment that's not threatening. As long as the basic rules of the site are respected there should be rational discussion allowed there about new things that aren't exactly supported by the aptosid team
se7en - 11.06.2011, 14:29
Post subject:
+1 dibl
even if I think that moving the entire mountain only because one tree is kind of drastic. But I guess the tree has its root quite deep in the mountain's ... Smile
But if the territory is so hostile and the team is so worried than that might be the best solution, if fact than I would not understand why they choose this hostile territory in the first place.

The aptosid.de forum might give asylum to English speaking members with an opinion.
dibl - 11.06.2011, 14:42
Post subject:
      se7en wrote:
moving the entire mountain only because one tree is kind of drastic


I don't really see it that way. The aptosid team are very proficient on developing the OS, and very focused on difficult technical problems with the new sid packages. Plus keeping up with IRC and forum support. I don't think there is time or patience to deal with less experienced users and their "noobish" questions and problems. Add a concern about German lawyers looking for violations on German servers, and the result is a defensive kind of moderation.

But, aptosid is an excellent cutting edge Debian OS, with the best manual I know of, and if less proficient users could feel their problems were welcomed and happily solved (even if for the 1,000th time), then probably there would be wider adoption of the OS for daily use.

Or so I think --
DeepDayze - 11.06.2011, 15:02
Post subject:
      dibl wrote:
      se7en wrote:
moving the entire mountain only because one tree is kind of drastic


I don't really see it that way. The aptosid team are very proficient on developing the OS, and very focused on difficult technical problems with the new sid packages. Plus keeping up with IRC and forum support. I don't think there is time or patience to deal with less experienced users and their "noobish" questions and problems. Add a concern about German lawyers looking for violations on German servers, and the result is a defensive kind of moderation.

But, aptosid is an excellent cutting edge Debian OS, with the best manual I know of, and if less proficient users could feel their problems were welcomed and happily solved (even if for the 1,000th time), then probably there would be wider adoption of the OS for daily use.

Or so I think --


Perhaps other users can help the less experienced out where they can thus reducing the reliance on the dev team, unless the issue in question exposes a bug and the team can then correct the bug or instruct the user to file a bug report where needed
piper - 11.06.2011, 18:01
Post subject: Re: thread quarantined!
      devil wrote:
the following thread was posted by Ayla and quarantined by the team:
      Quote:
Hi,

after an issues in the past with aptosid.de, now what happened in this thread was the point for me to make a decision.

Aptosid is a great distribution. I did and do enjoy it very much and I have learned a lot here. Many thanks to all of you for this.

I have accepted the forum policies when I have created my account. But now I can't understand and -this is the leading point- I can't accept the decisions made by members of the team anymore.

So in consequence I beg a moderator to delete my account or set in inactive, whatever the procedure is you prefere.

greets
ayla Sad


so, what is wrong with this thread?

greetz
devil


I too, feel this is just so wrong Sad
oldie - 11.06.2011, 20:38
Post subject:
Question:
aptosid:forum for Usere or personal disputes ?

oldie
devil - 11.06.2011, 20:54
Post subject:
this is the 'Anything Goes' section. its not for support.
and where is this personal?
i am stating things that go wrong in my humble opinion.
its my right and duty as an interested user to do so.

greetz
devil
xetaprime - 12.06.2011, 12:52
Post subject:
@DD
"Perhaps other users can help the less experienced out where they can thus reducing the reliance on the dev team, unless the issue in question exposes a bug and the team can then correct the bug or instruct the user to file a bug report where needed"

I don't care where I get my answer from. Even if a Penguin told me I'd listen. He wait a minute! Smile

You can be the best programmer in the world but lacking social skills you might not want to be in Public relations as well.
DonKult - 13.06.2011, 11:30
Post subject:
      xetaprime wrote:
You can be the best programmer in the world but lacking social skills you might not want to be in Public relations as well.

While this might work in a company, it doesn't work in opensource as it will divide the group into two groups: One who works on it and the other who talks about it. Its a very small step from there to get a conflict between these two groups resulting in what we already had and reappears again and again. Good theory, but the practice is just horrible… (we learned the hard way)


So much for that as i haven't and do not intend to read the remaster thread, as something like a remaster of aptosid can't exist by definition. sid is always changing, so if you build a cd yesterday and a cd today it is not the same cd - even if you include the same packages. And as far as i understood from skimming other this thread, you didn't even used "official" packages from debian sid for your e17-flavor¹ which breaks the golden "clean upgradepath" rule. So basically everything which makes a aptosid release an aptosid release was dropped.
Coca Cola will love you for releasing a e17-flavor coke without everything but the name and maybe the brown color. Wink

Oh, and as some mentioned in here something about GPL, legal and stuff: Please keep in mind that the GPL requires that the source is available, so this means that for a cd you need to provide an archive with the sources as well (It's not a strict rule, but its a good idea to provide it on the same medium - in this case the internet instead of by snailmail for example - as the binaries are available). And saying: Heh, most package sources are available on the debian mirrors is not enough for that… Just as a general reminder. And as it was mentioned here too: aptosid artwork and stuff is covered by a license too, so it is just as easy as for everything else to comply to it. No special treatment needed, no strings attached.


¹ You can get aptosid in different flavors: kde and xfce currently. gnome and lxde are worked on from time to time, but they are either blocked because of debian/upstream problems or are blocked by missing maintainers of this flavor. If a e17-flavor is intended, get a team - general rule is at least two people who commit for a long time to it, not just two days - and get it going. A flavor is not so much about getting a cd produced - that is as easy as saying apt-get install whatever -- it's about integration and keeping in contact with various upstreams (be it debian or the "real" upstream) to keep it working. With the publishing of a new flavor you give the promise that it will work (to some degree) and is supported (as far as volunteers can do it). Its certainly not a fire-and-forget.
xetaprime - 13.06.2011, 12:05
Post subject:
@DK
      Quote:
And as far as i understood from skimming other this thread, you didn't even used "official" packages from debian sid for your e17-flavor¹ which breaks the golden "clean upgradepath" rule.


Which 'flavor' did I use?

      Quote:
So basically everything which makes a aptosid release an aptosid release was dropped.


Are people frobidden to add back in the source.list and reinstall the scripts, xfce and ehh, wallpapers? Couldn't they do this? Or once it's removed it History? I know this works with Mint 11 because I've done it. I decided against Mint due to it's long boot time. hmmm, now ya got me thinking. I'll try that with my Aptosid Remaster later today and post back.

And you don't understand. Did you know that people are allowed to share linux- freely distribute linux? If I want to give a copy to my friend, I can. I also don't have to play 'Mother' for life when I do this- but I will help him/her if I can. Primee17 is not me trying to compete with anyone. It is me sharing e17.

have you tried to find a live sid dvd? Yes, this may be a bad idea- it might break, but people search for it. I've searched for it and add in e17 and then Remastersys. And you know what? Maybe it'll only be used as a LIVE dvd. Maybe they'll only install it once :0 If it breaks, maybe they'll know more than I and share the info- God forbid.

As far as GPL goes I don't need lecturing.

Why all the anxiety about this stuff? My goal has not been to compete or, cause trouble. All this hoo-ha fraking amazes and frankly, it's sad.

What happened to Linux putting fun back into computing? Lighten up you guys.

Sincerely,
Xeta

P.S. Like TV you can download it or choose not to. But if you want to experiment or yes 'play' with it- you can.
DonKult - 13.06.2011, 13:35
Post subject:
      xetaprime wrote:
Are people frobidden to add back in the source.list and reinstall the scripts, xfce and ehh, wallpapers? Couldn't they do this?

I don't really understand the question. What i meant is simply that a copy of your system on a livecd is not an aptosid release with e17. It's your system with e17 installed. It's not like you could restore virginity of a "system" by removing the "plug" (pun intended).

      xetaprime wrote:
Did you know that people are allowed to share linux- freely distribute linux? If I want to give a copy to my friend, I can.

(Without trying to educate you about licenses - it was not targeted at you, but at other in the thread(s) who mentioned it)
Thats not true. You are allowed to share the source - the binary is a bonus and the other way around, if you share the binaries you have to share the source. You are not free to do so, you are forced by the license (at least by the GPL - BSD and others are different). If you hand it a friend, this friend can ask you for the source and we can argue that as it is your friend you will find a way to give him the source. On the internet every stranger can download the binary, but how to get the source? And how to get both of it secure through a non-secure transport media as the internet is one. Can you promise that you will answer to posts asking for source in say 2 day/months/years? Is this forum still up at that time? The later is out of your control, which is generally bad…

      xetaprime wrote:
have you tried to find a live sid dvd? Yes, this may be a bad idea- it might break, but people search for it.

Thats the point of aptosid - to provide a live cd/dvd of sid which doesn't break (often). If searchers/experimenters are your targeted audiance instead of people who want to seriously use it you are using "the brand" "aptosid" for material which doesn't even try to comply to the standards of your rules, but people will think: Yeah, its aptosid - and if it breaks its aptosid's fault. It's even prominently promoted in their forums - in experimental maybe, but because its in the forum it is at least sort of official and supported. See KDE4.6 or iceweasel discussions for starters…


      xetaprime wrote:
Like TV you can download it or choose not to. But if you want to experiment or yes 'play' with it- you can.

Trying to compare with TV fails - beside that you are not allowed to modify it, its sometimes forbidden to play recording or to record at all. And if it can't be forbidden it is at least a high-priority task for TV providers to cripple your recording experience. Nothing of these "freedoms" apply to your usual free software…


My very personal take:
If you want the "fun back in computing" try sharing the source instead of a binary blob. TV isn't that much fun because you can only observe - playing yourself is much more fun.
So while remastering with e17 feels maybe like doing someone a favor, it like the old chinese saying: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
e17 is the new "Duke Nukem: Forever", so an intro in how to get and get around it is more future-save than a questionable remastersys iso of a snapshot…
xetaprime - 13.06.2011, 14:38
Post subject:
Just to be clear my GPL comment was unrelated to giving linux to a friend. That's why it was in a separate paragraph. And whatever you wrote about GPL I didn't read. Again please don't assume and don't lecture. I don't need to go into an explanation with you.

The system I tweaked, the live e17 I'm on now is Aptosid based. And fwiw you can copy the Aptosid source list back in- keyring and all the rest if one chose to do so- the wallpapers and scripts etc. I've just gone that.

Best,
Xeta
ikeinthai - 13.06.2011, 19:23
Post subject: rope.
here's a NEW Thai proverb (i just manufactured it):

give some folks enough rope and they hang themselves.

peace to all, ike.
xetaprime - 13.06.2011, 20:02
Post subject: RE: rope.
I've been dead for years Wink
xetaprime - 13.06.2011, 21:14
Post subject: RE: rope.
Dear Friends,

I realize (can you hear the organ music?) that my last batch of replies, how ever many you'd like to choose, have been somewhat heated. Jesus, give me the peace to try and explain... I feel some of you don't need an explanantion... Dear Lord...

You see, I don't understand the fever here. I now do understand linking to another distro is not welcome. I never argued it. Sure, I posted a sad face icon, so? This is all fine with me.

But for the hanging life of me I don't understand when the 'guarantine' was closed and I posted here in 'Anything Goes' about Remastersys working better in Squeeze- not anything I have online, not my distro, just tweaks regarding Remastersys- that some here would let in on me all over again. What cheek Jesus? Turn it again? OY! I ran out of cheeks! As this went on I felt like I was/am being interrogated. up to today even. It's no fun for someone who at first mind you, wanted to share the 'joy' and I do mean 'joy of getting Remastersys to work. BUT I DIDN'T KNOW IT'S A NO NO HERE! At that point I didn't know anything about what is frowned upon. Imagine I land here and in an instant a long time menber leaves because of my Remaster thread. That's no fun for me. Imagine having it locked with the excuse that personal attacks were happening. There was not a single personal attack that I read. Dissatisfaction maybe. And it's a shame because perhaps you could allow your members to discuss Remastering if they so choose to, chose to? even at the risk of breaking their system.

GPL (sigh) OY! Why would I want to address any one directly on this subject? Do I need to explain this to make you (and you know who you are) feel unthreatened or concerned or whatever it is you are worried about. Maybe, if you had(those of you) not hit me over the head first and been nice about it I'd take the time to respond in 'kind'. But that's not how it happened- at least how it felt to me. It was a warning and another warning and you can't do THIS! and THIS! and THIS! It's not that I can't give you an answer. It's the way you asked.

I just wanted to let the 'nice' people know that Remastersys could work in Aptosid. 'Someone' might want to fiddle- and not get arrested or it.

(DING!) "Back to your corners!" says the Referee.

I wish no ill will. Yet, it can be difficult to respond with a happy face when good intentions are washed down the drain.

Besy wishes,
Xeta
wiarus_old - 14.06.2011, 13:07
Post subject: RE: rope.
Just three cents of mine...

I understand xetaprime fun in doing things and all aptosid (and other distros) team principles in doing official distro, but this is what I understand from GPL:

If I've downloaded an GPL distro (for free), I've made a deal with developers. I've not only downloaded a distro, I also agreed with GPL licence. This is a required condition of (free) downloading. And that (GPL) licence says: IF I want to give a distro with some changes of mine to anybody (also friends), I MUST (under the law) give them sources (or make this possibility) in official way. This is the law.
Another things are developer team requests and principles.
So, have a fun, but don't forget we are all under a law.

That's all in a short way...
xetaprime - 15.06.2011, 12:05
Post subject:
      Quote:
This is the law.


“you will be…. absorbed.”

I find it amusing that if you mention the word 'Fun' in one paragraph and 'The Law' in another suddenly they are synonymous or ehh, hmm, mutually exclusive?

Mentioning 'Fun' was me trying to draw attention to the fact that some here seem to be carrying flaming torches.

And me not getting into the GPL with these 'law' spouters is my choice. Clearly everyone knows the 'The Law' and I know now I can rest in peace.

"Landru Commands you!"

But please do keep this going, fun, law, forbidden, self promoting, Aptosid not Aptosid and someone please, Remastersys. Uh, oh Rolling Eyes

Best,
Xeta
wiarus_old - 15.06.2011, 14:53
Post subject:
Xeta, don't be upset!

I love the way You have a joy/fun in create things.
I love to write scripts, build machines, create something. It's all beautiful indeed.
But between our emotions and world around us is something as like as baloon to protect other people (or us) from something that can do a harm.
This baloon name is - the law.
So I can understand aptosid developers rules.
And I encourage You to have a fun/joy!
Maybe You can build a team and do more then only "your private iso" in serious way, I think.

..........................
While we want to be free, in fact, we live in bondage to the law, even if it's GPL
Geronymous Wiarus

...and that's the way the cookie crumbles...
Bruce Almighty
xetaprime - 15.06.2011, 15:15
Post subject:
Hi wiarus,

I understand and agreed to the developers rules immediately, ya know. Heck, I had no choice in the matter since they removed my link. That's okay Smile. I think the first comment that came at me was 'Why Remaster' we're not supposed to remaster. But what if, before we ever do an upgrade, we install Aptosid- then go through all the trouble (not so much really but it is time consuming) to install e17 and a few other goodies- configure things- Google Voice- Flash etc. then, we we make a Remastersys iso and save it. Install to hard drive and as was said before never install again. That's the good scenario. But things do happen. Things break anyway, computers die- but I'll have that Remaster and it's a good thing. It's not Pyfll, but it works. I'm occasionally trying new distros and this way I can pick up where I left off. At least now while it's working. It may not at some point for example after an another upgrade.

The thing is I kept being reminded by people I don't know- 'what's the point of Remastering', 'it's frowned upon', 'Synaptic is bad', 'you can't link to other sites' all of which I felt had been handled or, I now knew about- and then GPL. I wasn't asked nicely about it. I was, as I wrote, lectured to. And even now, I'm tempted to talk about it but because of the delivery I have no desire to do so. In the least. I have a lot I'd like to say.

I do appreciate your post though.

Best,
Xeta
ShakaZ - 16.06.2011, 14:43
Post subject:
Hi Xeta,

just to say you I appreciate the efforts you made to make the e17 experience on aptosid less painfull.

I don't understand why the aptosid team reacts the way they do. Well I do get a general idea from what I read, though it seems counter-productive and not in the spirit of opensource.

That the aptosid team doesn't want to support your remastered system is understandable. The bad attitude, unwillingness to help, deleting links to your effort is really a pity.
Most other distro's forums I've visited welcome people wanting to remaster, are helpful and accept links to the remastered isos or even publish them in a dedicated offsprings page or thread. Examples that come to my mind; Knoppix, Kanotix (yeah the ancestors of Aptosid...), Puppy Linux, and many others.

Just hoping one day the aptosid team will embrace their community instead of pushing them away.
dpt - 15.07.2011, 17:55
Post subject:
Can we please, please, just take a break from this for some time
so that everyone involved can reset their brains?

For those who want to remaster, there is sidux-underground. If they have not changed the name.

As a developer of micro-controller based systems , I can understand the reluctance of the small team
of developers (especially working on sid) to have umpteen avoidable issues in the forums.

At this point of time I do not know who is a developer, who is a team member, or who is both,
except perhaps just one or two, so nothing personal for or against anyone.
slam - 15.07.2011, 18:02
Post subject:
And why are you calling to calm down, by refreshing this one month old topic?
Greetings,
Chris
dpt - 16.07.2011, 04:16
Post subject:
My mistake,I did not see the date.
Need to reset my brain too.

dpt
xetaprime - 16.07.2011, 11:25
Post subject:
Smile
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