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cristobalOffline
Post subject: how is aptosid a rolling release?  PostPosted: 02.01.2011, 20:04



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with new releases announced periodically and having to perform a dist-upgrade, how is aptosid any different from any other debian based distro with scheduled realeases? Confused

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DonKultOffline
Post subject: RE: how is aptosid a rolling release?  PostPosted: 02.01.2011, 20:52
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The difference is that the releases are snapshots for a user wanting to start rolling. From there on you can get updates every day. In practice, even right after a release you can get with a dist-upgrade newer packages compared to the iso's.

In contrast, 'debian stable' is frozen and doesn't change (thats why its named stable) between releases.

The upgrade between debian stable versions is well-tested and should normally work. The upgrades between newer releases of based-on-debian distributions is not so well tested (mostly, because most release more often than debians freeze period for testing lasts).

In contrast the upgrades here are much smaller if you dist-upgrade on a regular basis (e.g. daily) as newer versions of packages are released four times a day. This indicates that it can't be tested extensively, but the overall quality of new versions in debian unstable is very good so problems are rare and if they happen the amount of possible buggy versions is small (remember, small upgrades) and can be tracked down relatively easy and fixed (possibly with a hotfix in our own repo). Further more we are trying hard to be a good citizen in the debian ecosystem by working with debian on improving 'unstable' as its our base and their upcoming base for 'stable'. Cool

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dptOffline
Post subject: RE: how is aptosid a rolling release?  PostPosted: 03.01.2011, 17:59



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What do you want a new user to do?
Download the first version released years back (as sidux or maybe kanotix) and du to the latest stuff?

Try it (if the first version is available) and show that in can be done, even if takes months. Try even with 1st aptosid version, there maybe, maybe a small chance but I doubt it

Or you do not want new users?

Have a nice day and welcome.

DPT
 
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cristobalOffline
Post subject: Re: RE: how is aptosid a rolling release?  PostPosted: 03.01.2011, 20:47



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      DonKult wrote:
The difference is that the releases are snapshots for a user wanting to start rolling. From there on you can get updates every day. In practice, even right after a release you can get with a dist-upgrade newer packages compared to the iso's.

In contrast, 'debian stable' is frozen and doesn't change (thats why its named stable) between releases.

The upgrade between debian stable versions is well-tested and should normally work. The upgrades between newer releases of based-on-debian distributions is not so well tested (mostly, because most release more often than debians freeze period for testing lasts).



In contrast the upgrades here are much smaller if you dist-upgrade on a regular basis (e.g. daily) as newer versions of packages are released four times a day. This indicates that it can't be tested extensively, but the overall quality of new versions in debian unstable is very good so problems are rare and if they happen the amount of possible buggy versions is small (remember, small upgrades) and can be tracked down relatively easy and fixed (possibly with a hotfix in our own repo). Further more we are trying hard to be a good citizen in the debian ecosystem by working with debian on improving 'unstable' as its our base and their upcoming base for 'stable'. Cool

The people at the Linux Mint forum seem to think that LMDE is a release that they will never have to upgrade. Are they wrong? I use #! which is now based on Debian testing, but doesn't claim to be a rolling release. I still can't figure out the difference. Aren't Debian testing and unstable a rolling release and wouldn't that make any distro based on them forever updatable, even after Debian releases Squeeze and Sid becomes testing?

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DonKultOffline
Post subject: Re: RE: how is aptosid a rolling release?  PostPosted: 03.01.2011, 21:29
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      cristobal wrote:
The people at the Linux Mint forum seem to think that LMDE is a release that they will never have to upgrade. Are they wrong?

I don't know Mint and i don't really understand what you mean with this either. After an release - lets say Version 1 - you will have to upgrade at some point: Either to Version 1.1 as developers are only humans and therefore make mistakes and 1.1 is a security bugfix release -- or to 2.0 in which the developer thought something needs to be drastically improved (read: changed). A stable distribution like 'debian stable' only upgrades to 1.1 in the lifetime of the release -- a rolling release distribution like aptosid will upgrade to 2.0 as soon as this version is released. The stable distribution will get 2.0 too - but much later with their next release.

      cristobal wrote:
I use #! which is now based on Debian testing, but doesn't claim to be a rolling release.

testing by itself is a rolling release* (but with other rules compared to unstable) -- the thing is what 'based on' means in this sentence. aptosid gets its packages directly from unstable - you can see this as you have debian directly in your sources.list for APT. Debian based distributions like ubuntu provide their own archives which gets its packages at certain points in time from debian. Thats a big difference!
Have you noted the * at the beginning? testing is a rolling release because packages flow in at any point in time, but its not guarantied by anyone that a dist-upgrade will work in the future. Such a promise doesn't exist for unstable either - and thats where aptosid comes into play as we work here on smoothing the edges by working hard on providing an upgrade path.

      cristobal wrote:
I still can't figure out the difference.

The difference is simple: A distribution like debian stable tags their releases at a certain point as 'stable' and promises that you can upgrade from the old stable to the new stable version. Prereleases are not included in this promise. Between two stable versions are multiple weeks, months or even years. aptosid does it differently: You can view it as if aptosid would release every 6 hours a new version, we just upload new isos every couple of months as in the meantime you can get easily from the 'old' release to the current one which isn't published as an iso…

      cristobal wrote:
Aren't Debian testing and unstable a rolling release and wouldn't that make any distro based on them forever updatable, even after Debian releases Squeeze and Sid becomes testing?

I hope you get the message already above, so i just want to correct one thing: 'sid' doesn't become 'testing'! (but yes, testing becomes stable at some point) Packages from 'sid' migrate to 'testing' on a one-by-one basis under certain rules, but explaining these would be off-topic here…

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muchan
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: how is aptosid a rolling release?  PostPosted: 03.01.2011, 21:39
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sid is the permanent name for Debian unstable.
After the release of squeeze, sqeeze becomes stable,
and the new name for testing will be wheezy.

Rolling release is a name of the kind of distribution, that users
don't need to reinstall to have the latest system. In this regard,
Debian's testing and unstable are repositoty for rolling release,
but people don't call it rolling release, because Debian never releases
the testing and unstable. For Debian, they are repositories for preparing
the next (stable) release.

Users who don't want the change never have to upgrade. The system remains the same. Smile
 
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kermOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 03.01.2011, 21:43



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@cristobal:
Further to DonKult's reply, perhaps also look at the wiki for: "Rolling_release"

@dpt:
As a new member, I think you've misunderstood. That's natural, for there's a lot to understand.
I have been a "perpetual beginner" in this stream for a very long time, installing and using knoppix in its first year. I had earlier found SuSE (7.1) and debian too opaque for my modest skills.
Beginning with knoppix, and through kanotix, then sidux, and now aptosid, I have found the hardworking admins invariably patient and welcoming of new users ... and dedicated to making our use of their distro as enjoyable and troublefree as possible.

And I am confident, dpt, if you will bring your questions respectfully, that you will have the same experience.

You will also find that if you will follow the admins' friendly suggestions, that your frustrations will be few.
Some are:
-verify your ISO download!
-burn to disk as suggested,
-upgrade frequently,
-check here for upgrade warnings first!
-use apt
-use "dist-upgrade"
-read the manual Shocked

As regards your first installation, dpt: except for a very unusual reason, one installs the latest release. You'll find it described here. After reading the manual, and carefully following the installation routine, I think you'll find getting your new system up and running surprisingly easy. I hope so.

Sincere best wishes to all for 2011.
kerm[
 
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cristobalOffline
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: how is aptosid a rolling release?  PostPosted: 03.01.2011, 21:53



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Thank you muchan and DonKult. I think I get it now. Testing and unstable are not releases and never have to be upgraded.

Am I correct in assuming that; some distros based on Debian testing or unstable repositories make newer packages of their own available by version upgrading, while other distros based on these repositories add new packages to their own repostories where they can be made available by updating the same version?

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hhhOffline
Post subject: Re: RE: how is aptosid a rolling release?  PostPosted: 03.01.2011, 22:15



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      cristobal wrote:
The people at the Linux Mint forum seem to think that LMDE is a release that they will never have to upgrade. Are they wrong?
Well, nobody HAS to upgrade anything, but you will end up with security risks and outdated packages eventually. So if they say that (which most of them don't) then they are wrong. They should be doing periodic dist-upgrades. What they won't have to do is download and install a new .iso until they get a new machine, which is what the releases of aptosid are for as well.

      Quote:
I use #! which is now based on Debian testing, but doesn't claim to be a rolling release. I still can't figure out the difference.
#! is based on squeeze, which is not quite the same as testing. squeeze is what the next stable release of Debian will be, so it is currently testing and rolling but will be stable and non-rolling when it is released. If you do a dist-upgrade now you may find some new versions of applications with new features and bugfixes which may break other parts of your system as they haven't been thoroughly tested. When squeeze is officially released, you will only get security updates and trivial/obvious patches so the risk of breakage is minimal.

      Quote:
Aren't Debian testing and unstable a rolling release and wouldn't that make any distro based on them forever updatable, even after Debian releases Squeeze and Sid becomes testing?
First, sid will never become testing, sid is always unstable. squeeze is testing but it is so close to release that it is very stable. Stable and testing change names periodically, unstable doesn't. In other words, lenny will become out of date, squeeze will become stable, wheezy will become testing for a time, and sid will be unstable. But yes, testing and sid will always have frequent updates available.

Wikipedia has some good information on rolling releases...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_release

...and on Debian stable, testing, unstable and experimental...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian#Distributions

Anyone with more knowledge, feel free to make corrections and add info. Hope that helps.

-edit- Some of this was answered as I wrote this post, but I think I'll leave it as is.
 
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cristobalOffline
Post subject: Re: RE: how is aptosid a rolling release?  PostPosted: 03.01.2011, 22:46



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Thanks hhh. Yes i noticed "http://backports.debian.org/debian-backports-squeeze-backports" in Synaptic,s Software Sources on my #! machine. It is disabled by default. Maybe that is why they don't claim to be a rolling release.

      hhh wrote:
What they won't have to do is download and install a new .iso until they get a new machine, which is what the releases of aptosid are for as well.


I installed Ubuntu "Fiesty"on my son's machine earlier this century and he has been able to upgrade it through all its releases up to "Lucid". F,G,H,I,J,K,L that's 6 dist-upgrades.
Does that make Ubuntu a rolling release?

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hhhOffline
Post subject: Re: RE: how is aptosid a rolling release?  PostPosted: 03.01.2011, 23:40



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      cristobal wrote:
Thanks hhh. Yes i noticed "http://backports.debian.org/debian-backports-squeeze-backports" in Synaptic,s Software Sources on my #! machine. It is disabled by default. Maybe that is why they don't claim to be a rolling release.

No, it's not rolling because Squeeze will soon be not rolling. That's partially why #! Statler is still labeled Alpha, because Squeeze hasn't been released.

      hhh wrote:
F,G,H,I,J,K,L that's 6 dist-upgrades.
Does that make Ubuntu a rolling release?

I guess for him it does! Kidding, it means he's succesfully upgraded from one point release to the next. That's not what is meant by "rolling", see the 1st paragraph at wikipedia.

BTW, many, many, MANY users, such as myself, have hardware that has NEVER EVER EVER successfully upgraded from one Ubuntu release to the next. After several new installations, I gave up and started distro hopping, happily landing here a year ago.
 
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DonKultOffline
Post subject: Re: RE: how is aptosid a rolling release?  PostPosted: 03.01.2011, 23:42
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      cristobal wrote:
I installed Ubuntu "Fiesty"on my son's machine earlier this century and he has been able to upgrade it through all its releases up to "Lucid". F,G,H,I,J,K,L that's 6 dist-upgrades.
Does that make Ubuntu a rolling release?

No. It makes him a lucky guy. (SCNR) Wink
Seriously: No. As wikipedia puts it in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_Release
      wikipedia wrote:
to qualify as a rolling release, the philosophy of developers must be to work with one code branch, as opposed to discrete versions.

As you enumerated, ubuntu has discrete versions from which you upgrade to the next version -- e.g. from K to L. There are no versions inbetween K and L - everything remains the same until you start the big upgrade from K to L (expect for very minor bugfixes to protect users e.g. from security bugs).

In aptosid your version is only defined by the last time you did a dist-upgrade. My installed system has already now more recent versions of some packages compared to a freshly installed system from an 'aptosid 2010-03' iso and is still fully supported by the devs here. So i have many "versions" between 'aptosid 2010-03' and 'aptosid 2011-01' -- each 6 hours a new one. Currently 'aptosid 2010-03 2011-01-04 00:41 CET' if you want…

//edit: damn, this time hhh was faster Wink

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DeepDayzeOffline
Post subject: Re: RE: how is aptosid a rolling release?  PostPosted: 04.01.2011, 02:07



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      cristobal wrote:
      DonKult wrote:
The difference is that the releases are snapshots for a user wanting to start rolling. From there on you can get updates every day. In practice, even right after a release you can get with a dist-upgrade newer packages compared to the iso's.

In contrast, 'debian stable' is frozen and doesn't change (thats why its named stable) between releases.

The upgrade between debian stable versions is well-tested and should normally work. The upgrades between newer releases of based-on-debian distributions is not so well tested (mostly, because most release more often than debians freeze period for testing lasts).



In contrast the upgrades here are much smaller if you dist-upgrade on a regular basis (e.g. daily) as newer versions of packages are released four times a day. This indicates that it can't be tested extensively, but the overall quality of new versions in debian unstable is very good so problems are rare and if they happen the amount of possible buggy versions is small (remember, small upgrades) and can be tracked down relatively easy and fixed (possibly with a hotfix in our own repo). Further more we are trying hard to be a good citizen in the debian ecosystem by working with debian on improving 'unstable' as its our base and their upcoming base for 'stable'. Cool

The people at the Linux Mint forum seem to think that LMDE is a release that they will never have to upgrade. Are they wrong? I use #! which is now based on Debian testing, but doesn't claim to be a rolling release. I still can't figure out the difference. Aren't Debian testing and unstable a rolling release and wouldn't that make any distro based on them forever updatable, even after Debian releases Squeeze and Sid becomes testing?


Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu which is not a truly rolling release distro.

But they do have LMDE - Linux Mint Debian Edition which is truly based on the Debian Testing branch. This release is a rolling release as it tracks testing all the way
 
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DeepDayzeOffline
Post subject: Re: RE: how is aptosid a rolling release?  PostPosted: 04.01.2011, 02:30



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      hhh wrote:
      cristobal wrote:
Thanks hhh. Yes i noticed "http://backports.debian.org/debian-backports-squeeze-backports" in Synaptic,s Software Sources on my #! machine. It is disabled by default. Maybe that is why they don't claim to be a rolling release.

No, it's not rolling because Squeeze will soon be not rolling. That's partially why #! Statler is still labeled Alpha, because Squeeze hasn't been released.

      hhh wrote:
F,G,H,I,J,K,L that's 6 dist-upgrades.
Does that make Ubuntu a rolling release?

I guess for him it does! Kidding, it means he's succesfully upgraded from one point release to the next. That's not what is meant by "rolling", see the 1st paragraph at wikipedia.

BTW, many, many, MANY users, such as myself, have hardware that has NEVER EVER EVER successfully upgraded from one Ubuntu release to the next. After several new installations, I gave up and started distro hopping, happily landing here a year ago.


You got that right, I had set up a media box with Ubuntu Feisty as well, and when I upgraded to Gutsy it broke spectacularly. So I dumped Ubuntu and put debian testing on the media box instead...few issues with updates
 
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pumrelOffline
Post subject: Re: RE: how is aptosid a rolling release?  PostPosted: 04.01.2011, 10:04



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      hhh wrote:
I installed Ubuntu "Fiesty"on my son's machine earlier this century and he has been able to upgrade it through all its releases up to "Lucid". F,G,H,I,J,K,L that's 6 dist-upgrades.
Does that make Ubuntu a rolling release?


Shocked How lucky Smile I've never been able to do a safe upgrade with Ubuntu. At each dist-upgrade something broke up. Mostly graphics.
 
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