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se7enOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 11.06.2011, 14:29



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+1 dibl
even if I think that moving the entire mountain only because one tree is kind of drastic. But I guess the tree has its root quite deep in the mountain's ... Smile
But if the territory is so hostile and the team is so worried than that might be the best solution, if fact than I would not understand why they choose this hostile territory in the first place.

The aptosid.de forum might give asylum to English speaking members with an opinion.

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diblOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 11.06.2011, 14:42



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      se7en wrote:
moving the entire mountain only because one tree is kind of drastic


I don't really see it that way. The aptosid team are very proficient on developing the OS, and very focused on difficult technical problems with the new sid packages. Plus keeping up with IRC and forum support. I don't think there is time or patience to deal with less experienced users and their "noobish" questions and problems. Add a concern about German lawyers looking for violations on German servers, and the result is a defensive kind of moderation.

But, aptosid is an excellent cutting edge Debian OS, with the best manual I know of, and if less proficient users could feel their problems were welcomed and happily solved (even if for the 1,000th time), then probably there would be wider adoption of the OS for daily use.

Or so I think --
 
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DeepDayzeOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 11.06.2011, 15:02



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      dibl wrote:
      se7en wrote:
moving the entire mountain only because one tree is kind of drastic


I don't really see it that way. The aptosid team are very proficient on developing the OS, and very focused on difficult technical problems with the new sid packages. Plus keeping up with IRC and forum support. I don't think there is time or patience to deal with less experienced users and their "noobish" questions and problems. Add a concern about German lawyers looking for violations on German servers, and the result is a defensive kind of moderation.

But, aptosid is an excellent cutting edge Debian OS, with the best manual I know of, and if less proficient users could feel their problems were welcomed and happily solved (even if for the 1,000th time), then probably there would be wider adoption of the OS for daily use.

Or so I think --


Perhaps other users can help the less experienced out where they can thus reducing the reliance on the dev team, unless the issue in question exposes a bug and the team can then correct the bug or instruct the user to file a bug report where needed
 
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piperOffline
Post subject: Re: thread quarantined!  PostPosted: 11.06.2011, 18:01
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      devil wrote:
the following thread was posted by Ayla and quarantined by the team:
      Quote:
Hi,

after an issues in the past with aptosid.de, now what happened in this thread was the point for me to make a decision.

Aptosid is a great distribution. I did and do enjoy it very much and I have learned a lot here. Many thanks to all of you for this.

I have accepted the forum policies when I have created my account. But now I can't understand and -this is the leading point- I can't accept the decisions made by members of the team anymore.

So in consequence I beg a moderator to delete my account or set in inactive, whatever the procedure is you prefere.

greets
ayla Sad


so, what is wrong with this thread?

greetz
devil


I too, feel this is just so wrong Sad
 
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oldieOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 11.06.2011, 20:38



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Question:
aptosid:forum for Usere or personal disputes ?

oldie
 
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devilOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 11.06.2011, 20:54



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this is the 'Anything Goes' section. its not for support.
and where is this personal?
i am stating things that go wrong in my humble opinion.
its my right and duty as an interested user to do so.

greetz
devil
 
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xetaprimeOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 12.06.2011, 12:52



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@DD
"Perhaps other users can help the less experienced out where they can thus reducing the reliance on the dev team, unless the issue in question exposes a bug and the team can then correct the bug or instruct the user to file a bug report where needed"

I don't care where I get my answer from. Even if a Penguin told me I'd listen. He wait a minute! Smile

You can be the best programmer in the world but lacking social skills you might not want to be in Public relations as well.
 
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DonKultOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.06.2011, 11:30
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      xetaprime wrote:
You can be the best programmer in the world but lacking social skills you might not want to be in Public relations as well.

While this might work in a company, it doesn't work in opensource as it will divide the group into two groups: One who works on it and the other who talks about it. Its a very small step from there to get a conflict between these two groups resulting in what we already had and reappears again and again. Good theory, but the practice is just horrible… (we learned the hard way)


So much for that as i haven't and do not intend to read the remaster thread, as something like a remaster of aptosid can't exist by definition. sid is always changing, so if you build a cd yesterday and a cd today it is not the same cd - even if you include the same packages. And as far as i understood from skimming other this thread, you didn't even used "official" packages from debian sid for your e17-flavor¹ which breaks the golden "clean upgradepath" rule. So basically everything which makes a aptosid release an aptosid release was dropped.
Coca Cola will love you for releasing a e17-flavor coke without everything but the name and maybe the brown color. Wink

Oh, and as some mentioned in here something about GPL, legal and stuff: Please keep in mind that the GPL requires that the source is available, so this means that for a cd you need to provide an archive with the sources as well (It's not a strict rule, but its a good idea to provide it on the same medium - in this case the internet instead of by snailmail for example - as the binaries are available). And saying: Heh, most package sources are available on the debian mirrors is not enough for that… Just as a general reminder. And as it was mentioned here too: aptosid artwork and stuff is covered by a license too, so it is just as easy as for everything else to comply to it. No special treatment needed, no strings attached.


¹ You can get aptosid in different flavors: kde and xfce currently. gnome and lxde are worked on from time to time, but they are either blocked because of debian/upstream problems or are blocked by missing maintainers of this flavor. If a e17-flavor is intended, get a team - general rule is at least two people who commit for a long time to it, not just two days - and get it going. A flavor is not so much about getting a cd produced - that is as easy as saying apt-get install whatever -- it's about integration and keeping in contact with various upstreams (be it debian or the "real" upstream) to keep it working. With the publishing of a new flavor you give the promise that it will work (to some degree) and is supported (as far as volunteers can do it). Its certainly not a fire-and-forget.

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xetaprimeOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.06.2011, 12:05



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@DK
      Quote:
And as far as i understood from skimming other this thread, you didn't even used "official" packages from debian sid for your e17-flavor¹ which breaks the golden "clean upgradepath" rule.


Which 'flavor' did I use?

      Quote:
So basically everything which makes a aptosid release an aptosid release was dropped.


Are people frobidden to add back in the source.list and reinstall the scripts, xfce and ehh, wallpapers? Couldn't they do this? Or once it's removed it History? I know this works with Mint 11 because I've done it. I decided against Mint due to it's long boot time. hmmm, now ya got me thinking. I'll try that with my Aptosid Remaster later today and post back.

And you don't understand. Did you know that people are allowed to share linux- freely distribute linux? If I want to give a copy to my friend, I can. I also don't have to play 'Mother' for life when I do this- but I will help him/her if I can. Primee17 is not me trying to compete with anyone. It is me sharing e17.

have you tried to find a live sid dvd? Yes, this may be a bad idea- it might break, but people search for it. I've searched for it and add in e17 and then Remastersys. And you know what? Maybe it'll only be used as a LIVE dvd. Maybe they'll only install it once :0 If it breaks, maybe they'll know more than I and share the info- God forbid.

As far as GPL goes I don't need lecturing.

Why all the anxiety about this stuff? My goal has not been to compete or, cause trouble. All this hoo-ha fraking amazes and frankly, it's sad.

What happened to Linux putting fun back into computing? Lighten up you guys.

Sincerely,
Xeta

P.S. Like TV you can download it or choose not to. But if you want to experiment or yes 'play' with it- you can.
 
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DonKultOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.06.2011, 13:35
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      xetaprime wrote:
Are people frobidden to add back in the source.list and reinstall the scripts, xfce and ehh, wallpapers? Couldn't they do this?

I don't really understand the question. What i meant is simply that a copy of your system on a livecd is not an aptosid release with e17. It's your system with e17 installed. It's not like you could restore virginity of a "system" by removing the "plug" (pun intended).

      xetaprime wrote:
Did you know that people are allowed to share linux- freely distribute linux? If I want to give a copy to my friend, I can.

(Without trying to educate you about licenses - it was not targeted at you, but at other in the thread(s) who mentioned it)
Thats not true. You are allowed to share the source - the binary is a bonus and the other way around, if you share the binaries you have to share the source. You are not free to do so, you are forced by the license (at least by the GPL - BSD and others are different). If you hand it a friend, this friend can ask you for the source and we can argue that as it is your friend you will find a way to give him the source. On the internet every stranger can download the binary, but how to get the source? And how to get both of it secure through a non-secure transport media as the internet is one. Can you promise that you will answer to posts asking for source in say 2 day/months/years? Is this forum still up at that time? The later is out of your control, which is generally bad…

      xetaprime wrote:
have you tried to find a live sid dvd? Yes, this may be a bad idea- it might break, but people search for it.

Thats the point of aptosid - to provide a live cd/dvd of sid which doesn't break (often). If searchers/experimenters are your targeted audiance instead of people who want to seriously use it you are using "the brand" "aptosid" for material which doesn't even try to comply to the standards of your rules, but people will think: Yeah, its aptosid - and if it breaks its aptosid's fault. It's even prominently promoted in their forums - in experimental maybe, but because its in the forum it is at least sort of official and supported. See KDE4.6 or iceweasel discussions for starters…


      xetaprime wrote:
Like TV you can download it or choose not to. But if you want to experiment or yes 'play' with it- you can.

Trying to compare with TV fails - beside that you are not allowed to modify it, its sometimes forbidden to play recording or to record at all. And if it can't be forbidden it is at least a high-priority task for TV providers to cripple your recording experience. Nothing of these "freedoms" apply to your usual free software…


My very personal take:
If you want the "fun back in computing" try sharing the source instead of a binary blob. TV isn't that much fun because you can only observe - playing yourself is much more fun.
So while remastering with e17 feels maybe like doing someone a favor, it like the old chinese saying: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
e17 is the new "Duke Nukem: Forever", so an intro in how to get and get around it is more future-save than a questionable remastersys iso of a snapshot…

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xetaprimeOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.06.2011, 14:38



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Just to be clear my GPL comment was unrelated to giving linux to a friend. That's why it was in a separate paragraph. And whatever you wrote about GPL I didn't read. Again please don't assume and don't lecture. I don't need to go into an explanation with you.

The system I tweaked, the live e17 I'm on now is Aptosid based. And fwiw you can copy the Aptosid source list back in- keyring and all the rest if one chose to do so- the wallpapers and scripts etc. I've just gone that.

Best,
Xeta
 
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ikeinthaiOffline
Post subject: rope.  PostPosted: 13.06.2011, 19:23



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here's a NEW Thai proverb (i just manufactured it):

give some folks enough rope and they hang themselves.

peace to all, ike.

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xetaprimeOffline
Post subject: RE: rope.  PostPosted: 13.06.2011, 20:02



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I've been dead for years Wink
 
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xetaprimeOffline
Post subject: RE: rope.  PostPosted: 13.06.2011, 21:14



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Dear Friends,

I realize (can you hear the organ music?) that my last batch of replies, how ever many you'd like to choose, have been somewhat heated. Jesus, give me the peace to try and explain... I feel some of you don't need an explanantion... Dear Lord...

You see, I don't understand the fever here. I now do understand linking to another distro is not welcome. I never argued it. Sure, I posted a sad face icon, so? This is all fine with me.

But for the hanging life of me I don't understand when the 'guarantine' was closed and I posted here in 'Anything Goes' about Remastersys working better in Squeeze- not anything I have online, not my distro, just tweaks regarding Remastersys- that some here would let in on me all over again. What cheek Jesus? Turn it again? OY! I ran out of cheeks! As this went on I felt like I was/am being interrogated. up to today even. It's no fun for someone who at first mind you, wanted to share the 'joy' and I do mean 'joy of getting Remastersys to work. BUT I DIDN'T KNOW IT'S A NO NO HERE! At that point I didn't know anything about what is frowned upon. Imagine I land here and in an instant a long time menber leaves because of my Remaster thread. That's no fun for me. Imagine having it locked with the excuse that personal attacks were happening. There was not a single personal attack that I read. Dissatisfaction maybe. And it's a shame because perhaps you could allow your members to discuss Remastering if they so choose to, chose to? even at the risk of breaking their system.

GPL (sigh) OY! Why would I want to address any one directly on this subject? Do I need to explain this to make you (and you know who you are) feel unthreatened or concerned or whatever it is you are worried about. Maybe, if you had(those of you) not hit me over the head first and been nice about it I'd take the time to respond in 'kind'. But that's not how it happened- at least how it felt to me. It was a warning and another warning and you can't do THIS! and THIS! and THIS! It's not that I can't give you an answer. It's the way you asked.

I just wanted to let the 'nice' people know that Remastersys could work in Aptosid. 'Someone' might want to fiddle- and not get arrested or it.

(DING!) "Back to your corners!" says the Referee.

I wish no ill will. Yet, it can be difficult to respond with a happy face when good intentions are washed down the drain.

Besy wishes,
Xeta
 
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wiarus_oldOffline
Post subject: RE: rope.  PostPosted: 14.06.2011, 13:07



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Just three cents of mine...

I understand xetaprime fun in doing things and all aptosid (and other distros) team principles in doing official distro, but this is what I understand from GPL:

If I've downloaded an GPL distro (for free), I've made a deal with developers. I've not only downloaded a distro, I also agreed with GPL licence. This is a required condition of (free) downloading. And that (GPL) licence says: IF I want to give a distro with some changes of mine to anybody (also friends), I MUST (under the law) give them sources (or make this possibility) in official way. This is the law.
Another things are developer team requests and principles.
So, have a fun, but don't forget we are all under a law.

That's all in a short way...

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