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se7enOffline
Post subject: Slam dancing with Lemmings  PostPosted: 22.06.2011, 04:09



Joined: 2010-09-11
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Are you planing to be the fastest Lemming in the history of Linux?

I want to write up front that I never write anything here to start another fight, BUT the events on the last couple of days let me wounder
what the plans of aptosid are for the future. Remaster get shot out of the air, slam uses a privat build (which slam would be the first one to criticize as not
supported in this forum), the #aptosid banns some of there best long time supporter ...

I have never seen a forum/irc with so many helpful people and so many trouble in asking non technical questions.
For me as a long time user, it is quite difficult to ask the question the right way.
There is so much bad history under the carpet that it is easy to stumble.

As I see it there are a couple of issues that arise every time again.

1. The multimedia issue.
I guess slam is the one who speaks for that matter and loves to see himself as the one who holds the law up high.
In my opinion it is quite stupid that if you have a problem with that matter to choose the most hostile country for your server.
Yes let's build a fire cracker factory next to the gas station???

Easy to solve the problem, if you are interested to do so. I never had the feeling it was seen as a problem and most of the aptosid user
seek help in multimedia questions in other places where it is allowed. Not sure if that is the smartest move for aptosid, but hey who cares.

2. The human issue.
It looks to me that every thread that is pure technical, pure OS support is quite good, fast and on the point.
Trouble starts when people ask why and try new things. aptosid seams to attract trouble maker Smile

Again easy solution close the sections that make trouble. Like "Anything goes" ... no it does not ...!

3. The Omnipotence.
I do understand that not every little thing has to be shared with the community but the attitude towards the "stupid user" is getting worse.
One big issue was the Nvidia problem. You might have had your reasons to act the way you did, but I guess a lot of user would have liked to
read a few sentences in the "News" section. The one who can not be named here started a poll to find out what your user want ... If you don't
think it is necessary to listen to the community than at least write to them, they might actually understood the situation if they had all the information.

It would be nice to be not treated as a "stupid user", use poll's and the news section.

4. The cause.
I have seen many arguments in this forum and I am not writing this to blame the one or the other. Me and most of the community do not have
enough information to tell who is right and who is wrong.
But I can say that the mayor fights always started with on team member being snappy towards a community member. He drove almost all the
German community into exile and countless others to Debian or other distros. I do not know if that was always all his fault or if he has the tendency to
be at the wrong place at the wrong time ... All I see is that he starts an argument and than leans back and watch the fight and for some reason he always
finds a minion to fight for him.

Unless there is a big conspiracy in play I see the same pattern over and over again. He might be a indispensable member of the develpment team, but he is not helping to keep the community united and strong.

Seeing all this I can only hope that aptosid survives another winter, but I can not help to start looking for plan B.

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redsidOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 22.06.2011, 06:10



Joined: 2011-02-08
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Dear Mr Sev7en

Are you new to Kanotix, Sidux, Aptosid? Nothing has changed in all these years. All the OS's on all
my computers came from these very talented people. I have adjusted them as I see fit. That is what
Linux is all about.
If the powers that be at Aptosid wish to run their show as they see fit so be it. If people want to
embrace their philosophy, so be it, bearing in mind the previous statement.
As a reminder, virtually all of Aptosid is Debian sid. There are over 33,190 packages at the moment.
I use them at my convenience. If someone wishes to ignore these facts, so be it.
It is still my conviction that many of the people that have installed Aptosid should never have
done so. It sounds exciting but far more exciting than they bargained for.
In conclusion, people have gotten themselves in over their heads and of course now they
come here looking for advice. My answer is "what part of UNSTABLE didn't you understand" And the
UNSTABLE applies to the entire world of Aptosid!
 
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DonKultOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 22.06.2011, 09:21
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I read the thread title and hoped for an animated image or even a funny video, but in the end its the same boring topic again…

se7en, i really hope you make a plan B, but for most users, i am not even sure they have a plan A. There are multiple thousand distributions out there. Pick the one which suits your needs best. I am pretty sure you will not find "the" distribution which suits your needs completely, but some should be the best at it. Then, stick to this distro(s) and be happy. Sticking to an unfitting distro and trying to make it work from the outside will NEVER work. It might not even work from the inside. People who were best friends a while ago can broke up, thats happening all the time. The reason is simple that even the personalities have a evolution and its far easier to evolve different interests than to pick out of the gazillion of options the single one who works for all. aptosid is not the end of the evolution and not the distribution nirvana as budda would have said. It might is for a person at one time, but that doesn't mean it is like that for ever.

Regarding the poll thing: Did Shuttleworth had a poll for moving the window controls to the left? for unity by default? for $image-viewer-2 instead of $image-viewer-1? The answer is a simple "no, he hasn't asked you". The reason is that he and canonical as a whole has a goal and in there understanding this goal can only be reached by doing such and such. If you have a different goal then you are the problem and not the distribution you choose. The distribution hasn't chosen you to be their user, you know? (At least i am pretty sure the devels hadn't a poll for this) But Shuttleworth hasn't decided that alone, he really asked someone else: People who do the work, so if you think you need to have influence in your distribution, make a contribution and other workers will eventually seek advice from you and you can raise your voice once in a while. Democracy sounds great on paper only as you need people for that which have no other income (hopefully nobody is corupt) than their paycheck from you for working on the distro. The problem is then that you don't do the right thing but the thing which is most popular at a given time (i am still laughing about the contradicting decisions involving nuclear power plants in the last years in germany, nothing has changed on the fact side, but another idea is now much more popular). And i at least prefer to be a developer instead of a politician, even if i am both for quiet a while now, but thankfully in totally different areas. Smile


The multimedia thing is so old that i wonder if Adam told Eve something about it, but let me still add a sentence to it: Germany, or for that matter the EU (2001/29/EC), is from its multimedia/copright law even a tinny tinny bit saner than the USA (DMCA). Not that the laws would be sane either way in multiple ways. In essence: The few "nations" not part of WIPO are so small that i have never heard of them before…
But i can only repeat myself: Try it without the famous multimedia first. By chance, you will miss nothing (e.g. did you know that you can listen to mp3 without multimedia stuff out of dubious sources?)

(as a matter of fact, the story about Adam and Eve might be the first copyright violation in history as the retrieval and distribution of the apple was forbidden by god -- and even through all human mankind did it as it seemed to be a peccadillo (small offense, german: "Kavaliersdelikt") the punishment was very hard in the end…)

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se7enOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 22.06.2011, 10:37



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Well this proves exactly my point.
Sorry DonKult I really respect your opinion but once again the "minions" doing the dirty work.

Yes it might not be as funny as slam dancing Lemmings (which you must admit is a great thread header), but to call it boring ... I might see things too drastic.
And to start the answer with "I really hope you make a plan B ..." is quite disturbing to be honest.

This thread was meant as constructive criticism and not to start another "did Eve eat the apple?" discussion.

No I am not asking to do it my way, I did ask to reflect on what happened over the years to have a look at a small distro that is divided in multiple fractions. Everybody who can use apt and read doesn't really this forum to run aptosid (at least doesn't have to be active). Some of us could probably run pure sid. But this was not the point.

Crying or Very sad

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slamOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 22.06.2011, 10:59
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      se7en wrote:
This thread was meant as constructive criticism and not to start another "did Eve eat the apple?" discussion.
Well, if that's really true (which I really do not believe) you badly missed your goal. Stupid title missing real humour, lengthy text passages without constructive contribution, but just filled with your "analysis" of how you guess how things went with Aptosid. And finally: You have missed from day one to communicate with the team about any ideas or contributions you might have for Aptosid - and that's the only way to influence an open source project.

The reasons why 3 people have been baned at #aptosid (and one of them unbaned already, after he has appologized for his behaviour) are known to those people very well, and not a matter of "voting" or "public discussion". They have violated several times our code of conduct, and the binding OFTC rules. They haven been warned, and ignored it. Now they are gone, so we finally can again use our channel for serious technical support without pollution.

I will not comment the stuff pointed directly at me personally, you will have to live with what you said in public (meaning: eat your own shit if you love it, I will not touch it).

Greetings,
Chris

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se7enOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 22.06.2011, 12:10



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Thank you for your poetic answer slam.
Not the answer I was hoping for but guess what. Who cares anyway.

Good that you are "The Team Member" so this thread might not be closed because of personal attacks. At least not if you are on the right team.

Anyway I have nothing to add anymore. I could have not have said it more beautiful than slam already did. This will be my last post in this forum.

Thank you for all your help.

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MathiasOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 22.06.2011, 12:12



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      slam wrote:

The reasons why 3 people have been baned at #aptosid (and one of them unbaned already, after he has appologized for his behaviour)


I am sorry but I need to correct you.

I am one of the banned persons and you accepted my apologies for being rude (I called you a cheater in the public IRC chat because of that website which accused you of committing fraud).

This was your words from yesterday :
      Quote:

<slam> das team hat zugestimmt, du kannst wieder in #aptosid



But I am still not unbanned !


See the screenshot:



As I told you the cause of my rude behavior was the website which I read for the first time. I was just shocked and wanted to know whether the accusation were true or false. We cleared it in the private chat.



However, I am unaware of violating any other rules.
 
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wolo
Post subject:   PostPosted: 22.06.2011, 12:28



Joined: 2010-09-11
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devil left IRC-aptosid by his own at Monday 20. Juni 2011 16:01:57 without any warning that he has to leave or something else.

He was baned many hours later by slh without being in IRC on Tuesday morning 02:55

I checked the log over some days there was no warning for him.

A very sad,sad thing.
 
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slamOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 22.06.2011, 12:29
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Mathias, I told you that I am not authorized to do the technical steps needed, and that it might take some time until one of the channel ops (which I am not) will lift the ban. I also suggested to directly contact one of the channel ops via PM.
And yes, you did not violate additional rules - opposite to the 2 remaining people, who are still, and will remain baned.
Greetings,
Chris

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clubexOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 22.06.2011, 14:29



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I have to say I'm on se7en's side. I've been a registered member since the Kanotix days. To give Kano his due he was firm but at least he had some social skills. He could point out your error or mistaken opinion and it didn't feel as if some one had spit on you. But ever since the sidux days I have become more and more loath to post to these forums. More often than not if I try to help someone one of the team members comes out of the woodwork and gives me a kick or passes some insulting remarks. In my time I've even been called a troll and thicker than one of the team's children (or grandchildren can't remember which).

Can't the team members realise that this attitude has given aptosid a bad reputation on the net and it must be affecting the membership growth.

And is it my mistaken feeling or does it seem to be that most of the problems posted in the forums these days are solved by the members of the forums and rarely by the team members. The team members role seems to be to that of a thought police.

I'm sorry but if it wasn't for the fact that aptosid forums are occasionally useful for du warnings, the truly wonderful manual and that there isn't another reasonable distro based on Debain sid around I'd never bother to look at these forums again. After all it's relatively easy to clean out the aptosid stuff and return toe a clean debian sid.

Maybe Donkuit inadvertently hit the nail on the head. Perhaps it's time to clear out the chaff or ditch aptosid altogether and create a fresh distro based on sid.

I suppose this will get me banned and another kicking but I'm fed up with coming to these forums every day and seeing some poor sucker being insulted and sworn at merely for speaking his mind.
 
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dptOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 22.06.2011, 14:52



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Someone, please change the subject.
Or better, the contents.

Why not everyone take a break and cooldown?

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DonKultOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 22.06.2011, 19:09
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      clubex wrote:
Maybe Donkuit inadvertently hit the nail on the head. Perhaps it's time to clear out the chaff or ditch aptosid altogether and create a fresh distro based on sid.

Tried already a few times, but just talking unfortunately doesn't get the work done. It usually just splits people apart.

You also don't need to "ditch" anything. The internet is so large that you can co-exist without problem - at least at a technical point. The fanboy crowds of both will love each other but we have these fights already without a direct competitor, so it can't be worse…


I am talking so much about plans recently because i think many people have chosen the wrong distribution with aptosid and doesn't get it. The nvidia decision and the fuss about it is a good example for that. The constant discouraging of using third-party packages or self-compiled stuff another. Its not the goal of aptosid to provide a distribution in which you can shoot yourself good into your food. Other distros are far better for that. We try to stick as close to debian sid and other upstreams as possible. We dicourage non-free and encourage DFSG. If someone - and there are many here - who wish something different i don't understand why they are still using aptosid. I don't use a Fiat and complain that it is not a Porsche…

P.S.: dpt, before i posted i thought about adding '[no video/pic]' to the title, but i dropped that idea as it wouldn't be that funny either way. The heat will come down again after the usual suspects have raised there voice and drop back into silence, until then the motto stands as always: 'Hell is empty as all the devils are here' Wink

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hubiOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 22.06.2011, 20:17
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      DonKult wrote:
The nvidia decision and the fuss about it is a good example for that.

Then we should state we are just compatible with Debian Sid Main. Nouveau is just not the first choice for cutting edge Nvidia hardware. Then people can decide if aptosid is the way to go or not. Lots of rants would be avoided.

hubi

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hubiOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 22.06.2011, 20:26
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      DonKult wrote:
I don't use a Fiat and complain that it is not a Porsche

I thought aptosid is a Ferrari and only Adrian Newey spoils the show ...

Anyway. I drive italian cars for more than 20 years and there is nothing wrong with them. They are beasts Wink

hubi

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hubiOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 22.06.2011, 20:35
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      DonKult wrote:
Hell is empty as all the devils are here

Sorry, it's not funny. I really have to adjust to the situation that devil was thrown out of a window in the 89th floor. It was devil who introduced me to wonderful bluewater to translate the manual into the German language. I do that since 2007.

Kicking devil is not just another hickup to me and definitely not funny.

hubi

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