Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Printable version Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Author Message
pumrelOffline
Post subject: Rolling release - fixed release?  PostPosted: 17.07.2011, 12:21



Joined: 2010-09-14
Posts: 117
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
Hi there,
I was just wondering. Can rolling release based distros be as inovative as fixed release?
Isn't fixed release model better for making bigger steps in terms of developing cardinal parts of the system?
I am asking because I don't really see beyond the development and I am just curious.

_________________
Petr
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
DonKultOffline
Post subject: Re: Rolling release - fixed release?  PostPosted: 17.07.2011, 12:51
Team Member


Joined: 2010-09-02
Posts: 481

Status: Offline
      pumrel wrote:
Can rolling release based distros be as inovative as fixed release?

Sure they can. The difference is only that in a "fixed release" distro you are waiting until the innovation is over before you get it while in a "rolling release" distro you get all the baby steps of the innovation between today and future as there is no flagday to wait for.

Thats why a "rolling release" distro is more "dangerous" - if you are unlucky you can upgrade in the middle of a big change (think of a new KDE version in unstable for example): This can never happen in a "fixed release" distro.

_________________
MfG. DonKult
"I never make stupid mistakes. Only very, very clever ones." ~ The Doctor
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
DeepDayzeOffline
Post subject: RE: Re: Rolling release - fixed release?  PostPosted: 17.07.2011, 15:32



Joined: 2010-09-11
Posts: 616
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Debian Stable is a sort of a good example of a "fixed release"
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
pumrelOffline
Post subject: RE: Re: Rolling release - fixed release?  PostPosted: 17.07.2011, 22:33



Joined: 2010-09-14
Posts: 117
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
But some packages or larger implementations have to be released in alpha state so they can be thoroughly tested. And in that state there are lots of bugs that are reported and fixed don't they? Maybe I just misunderstand how something is developed Sad

_________________
Petr
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
cid-babaOffline
Post subject: RE: Re: Rolling release - fixed release?  PostPosted: 18.07.2011, 10:45



Joined: 2010-09-11
Posts: 24

Status: Offline
alpha states only occur in "new" things, if something is completly new written or rewritten - and they are tested "outside" the distributions by the developers. who want's alpha-versions on productive systems? if the developer has done the basic testing the software goes to its beta-stadium - and when upstream says its finish, that means if upstream releases a new version, it will be packaged an come to the repos (in sid, there are often beta-versions, too, because sid is thought as a testingarea for new versions for the next stable release. you will hardly find a beta version in stable). the rolling releases get the packages "at once", the fixed releases with the next release of the distribution. both hast pros and cons, so it's a matter of taste Wink:

rolling releases get the new versions faster, but naturally they are not yet tested to every detail, and maybe there are problems with other packages.

fixed releseases have set of packes that will work together without problems - but therefore the packages might be a bit old (look at debian stabe for example)
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
CaesarTjalboOffline
Post subject: Re: Rolling release - fixed release?  PostPosted: 20.07.2011, 19:45



Joined: 2010-09-13
Posts: 95
Location: Enschede
Status: Offline
      pumrel wrote:
Can rolling release based distros be as inovative as fixed release?
Innovation and the release-system of a distro aren't related.

      Quote:
Isn't fixed release model better for making bigger steps in terms of developing cardinal parts of the system?
Development of fixed release distros, especially with regards to basic parts of the system, is done in large steps by definition.

However, I don't think there's much of a difference there between both release models for the availability of new fundamental parts. New releases of a fixed release distro garner a lot of press with their revolutionary changes, users of a rolling release dstro just apply new technology when it becomes available. In both cases it's the developers who make it possible (or not).

Software development, such as the "alpha state" you mention, is not so much done in the distro. Most 'open source' projects allow you to grab a copy of the current development version of their software and may also have designated alpha, beta and/or Release Candidate versions available, next to a version they deem 'stable'.

At some point a version of that software, any version, may be picked up by the distro-maintainer of that package for inclusion in a distro. Distros typically have experimental repositories for that, such as Debian experimental or Fedora rawhide.

However, in itself this is irrelevant for the release-system of a distro. For example, a fixed release distro may choose to package beta versions of software and release a new version of itself every 2 months while a rolling release distro may only include major version jumps of stable software.

Debian sid is called 'unstable' and it has "bleeding edge" software, it doesn't mean that all software in sid is (even close to) the latest version or closely following the development "upstream" in the software project. It depends on things like the quality of the software, the availability of a maintainer, the dependencies in the distro or the goals set out for the distro.
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
sx9Offline
Post subject: RE: Re: Rolling release - fixed release?  PostPosted: 20.07.2011, 22:02



Joined: 2010-09-12
Posts: 219
Location: Wiesbaden,Germany
Status: Offline
Another disadvantage of fixed distros is that some distro maintainers don't release updates for your distro after a while, like Ubuntu does it in different ways (only LTS[Long-term support] releases get updates 2/3 years long), so you have to install a new version to get the latest updates and support, even if you have the distro already installed (=investing more time in reinstallation and configuration).
The best example, or at least a good example, for fixed release OSes is Window$. You only get innovation and new functions when you pay for it. Aptosid here is the complete opposite. (free and you get new functions/technologies as they're available)

_________________
My new self-made computer:
Intel Core i7-2600k
ASUS Maximus IV Gene-Z (Mainboard)
2x4GB DDR3 RAM
ATI Radeon HD 6770
OCZ Vertex 3 60GB (SSD)
Western Digital Caviar Green WD20EARX 2TB (HDD)
...
aptosid x86_64
 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger  
Reply with quote Back to top
DonKultOffline
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Rolling release - fixed release?  PostPosted: 21.07.2011, 12:35
Team Member


Joined: 2010-09-02
Posts: 481

Status: Offline
      sx9 wrote:
Another disadvantage of fixed distros is that some distro maintainers don't release updates for your distro after a while, like Ubuntu does it in different ways (only LTS[Long-term support] releases get updates 2/3 years long), so you have to install a new version to get the latest updates and support, even if you have the distro already installed (=investing more time in reinstallation and configuration).

But many (not all) distros provide an upgrade path from the last to next stable release. It works better for some, not so good for others. Debian (in stable) is very proud of being upgradable to a new release without reinstalling.

What is left then is that you have all changes at once while in a rolling release you have small changes all the time. So its a matter of taste if you want to do a single big change once a release cycle or many many small ones possibly every day.


If you want to bend your mind a bit: debian unstable is a fixed release which releases every six hours. And debian stable is a rolling release which rolls ~ every two years. Wink

_________________
MfG. DonKult
"I never make stupid mistakes. Only very, very clever ones." ~ The Doctor
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
ghstryderOffline
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Rolling release - fixed release?  PostPosted: 21.07.2011, 14:50



Joined: 2010-09-12
Posts: 94
Location: Detroit
Status: Offline
      DonKult wrote:
If you want to bend your mind a bit: debian unstable is a fixed release which releases every six hours. And debian stable is a rolling release which rolls ~ every two years. Wink
What an excellent characterization! Things don't always go along with our attempts to define them, organize them and file them away.
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
sx9Offline
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Rolling release - fixed release?  PostPosted: 21.07.2011, 15:08



Joined: 2010-09-12
Posts: 219
Location: Wiesbaden,Germany
Status: Offline
      Quote:

Debian (in stable) is very proud of being upgradable to a new release without reinstalling.

That's why I took Windows for an example Wink

_________________
My new self-made computer:
Intel Core i7-2600k
ASUS Maximus IV Gene-Z (Mainboard)
2x4GB DDR3 RAM
ATI Radeon HD 6770
OCZ Vertex 3 60GB (SSD)
Western Digital Caviar Green WD20EARX 2TB (HDD)
...
aptosid x86_64
 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger  
Reply with quote Back to top
sx9Offline
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Rolling release - fixed release?  PostPosted: 21.07.2011, 15:17



Joined: 2010-09-12
Posts: 219
Location: Wiesbaden,Germany
Status: Offline
But the advantage of rolling released like aptosid is that you have everytime the latest version of a package, while in stable you have to wait for new versions and only get security updates and bugfixes.
In short: Sid is something for feature freaks and developers who need to have the latest version of a package for testing and bugtracking/-fixing.
Stable(fixed) is something for webhosters and/or those who don't want/ are not allowed/ are unable/ are too lazy to do updates all the time.

_________________
My new self-made computer:
Intel Core i7-2600k
ASUS Maximus IV Gene-Z (Mainboard)
2x4GB DDR3 RAM
ATI Radeon HD 6770
OCZ Vertex 3 60GB (SSD)
Western Digital Caviar Green WD20EARX 2TB (HDD)
...
aptosid x86_64
 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger  
Reply with quote Back to top
slamOffline
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Rolling release - fixed release?  PostPosted: 21.07.2011, 20:11
Team Member


Joined: 1970-01-01
Posts: 607
Location: w3
Status: Offline
      sx9 wrote:
...In short: Sid is something for feature freaks and developers who need to have the latest version of a package for testing and bugtracking/-fixing.
Stable(fixed) is something for webhosters and/or those who don't want/ are not allowed/ are unable/ are too lazy to do updates all the time.
Very nicely put, just let me add that some additional folks do not simply "need", but want latest stuff - some of them might even contribute upstream.
Greetings,
Chris

_________________
an operating system must operate
development is life
my Debian repo
 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number 
Reply with quote Back to top
pumrelOffline
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Rolling release - fixed release?  PostPosted: 21.07.2011, 22:20



Joined: 2010-09-14
Posts: 117
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
Thank you for this live discussion. Now it does make more sense for me Smile
Anyways, I am very happy with aptosid. However, it looks like the guys from Mint want to be closing on us with their planned KDE LMDE. Sad

_________________
Petr
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
CaesarTjalboOffline
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Rolling release - fixed release?  PostPosted: 22.07.2011, 19:41



Joined: 2010-09-13
Posts: 95
Location: Enschede
Status: Offline
      sx9 wrote:
The best example, or at least a good example, for fixed release OSes is Window$. You only get innovation and new functions when you pay for it.
Windows is a commercial OS so you pay for it but in that it isn't so different from Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Subsequent service packs are free. Microsoft offers a very long support for its OSes.

      sx9 wrote:
But the advantage of rolling released like aptosid is that you have everytime the latest version of a package, while in stable you have to wait for new versions and only get security updates and bugfixes.
No miracle when you consider the Debian development model where sid is 2 stages before 'stable'. It's still not tied to the rolling release aspect. Anecdotal example: iirc it took about a year longer for Python 2.5 to become the default in (rolling) sid compared to (fixed) Fedora.
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
Display posts from previous:     
Jump to:  
All times are GMT - 12 Hours
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Printable version Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Powered by Zafenio