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SpaceferretOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.09.2011, 01:14



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IgnorantGuru wrote
      Quote:

But as a start, an officially recommended 'keep it working' procedure would be good enough.


I totally agree with you,and that's exactly what I was asking for.It shouldn't be the Team's policy to wait for aptosid users to post their quite often contradictory results and then take credit for the 'job well done' such as pipers' I told you so.I don't think aptosid-nvidia will ever realize because that would call for aptosid-Radeon , aptosid-Intel and who know what else. Frustration comes from the fact that it is nearly impossible for an average user to make sense out off all postings regarding the topic.Piper says it works for him and the wait is over whilst the next guy says
      Quote:

X is starting with 275.28 but it is not stable.
(For example when i am launching chrome and popup from Gmail Checker is rised - kdm restarts Sad
( I know this sounds too weird altogether)
Who is to be trusted? Can we expect a definite answer? But no, they tell you to use Ubunty !
 
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jheaton5Offline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.09.2011, 01:22



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I'm not sure what the problem is here. The Nvidia driver and Xorg were incompatible. Nvidia blamed Xorg, the X team blamed Nvidia. The long and the short of it all is that if you used the Nvidia blob AND did a du before the incompatibility was fixed you would have a broken system. If you used Nouveau driver you would lose all your 3-D graphics and eye candy but at least you would have a useable system. All your whining and crying about who gave bad advice and who gave no advice is just plain stupid. If a du looks like it will break your system, then don't du. If you decide to du anyway and your system breaks then the only person responsible is you. After all this is sid. If you can't handle the instability then try squeeze. Or just grow up.
 
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kelmoOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.09.2011, 01:48



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      IgnorantGuru wrote:
If Aptosid's team could set a recommended procedure when these problems occur, that would be helpful. IOW, "If you need blob nvidia, we suggest..."


"If you need blob nvidia, we suggest..." that you look somewhere else for a system which meets your requirement of having an "always works" policy when it comes to 3rd party closed source software - because we, aptosid, are not it by a long shot, nor are we ever going to be.

In fact, aptosid, and indeed even Debian, often introduce changes without any consideration for 3rd party closed source software at all. History shows that we make no apologies for this and we take a huge amount of criticism for it on the chin and wear it, because that's how we are.

Its hard for any of the team to recommend anything here because almost all of us are free software "zealots" who choose to avoid hardware which has non-free needs or choose to use free software variants whenever they exist.
 
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SpaceferretOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.09.2011, 04:19



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jheaton5 wrote :
      Quote:

All your whining and crying about who gave bad advice and who gave no advice is just plain stupid. If a du looks like it will break your system, then don't du.

Using your own phraseology what really is plain stupid is to post a misleading comment on a subject you don't understand. The root of the problem is that the conflict between nvidia and xorg didn't result in package removal during d-u therefore " 0 packages to be removed " was a green light to proceed with d-u to anyone unsuspecting what will happen next . So you suggestion that
      Quote:

If a du looks like it will break your system
is totally unsubstantiated to anyone who doesn't possess the quality of clairvoyance

kelmo wrote :
      Quote:

almost all of us are free software "zealots" who choose to avoid hardware which has non-free needs

Is such hardware readily available in my local BestBuy store?
 
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SpaceferretOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.09.2011, 04:38



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kelmo wrote :
      Quote:

"If you need blob nvidia, we suggest..." that you look somewhere else for a system which meets your requirement of having an "always works" policy when it comes to 3rd party closed source software
Actually aptosid Manual goes great length explaining how to install and use 3rd party closed source software on aptosid system (video drivers in particular) , it doesn't say "If you are using a video card that requires closed source driver stay away from us". So what you are saying is nonsense.I tried to find the phrase "Free software zealots" but couldn't find it either .This tread is dedicated to resolving the conflicting problem in the latest nvidia/xorg packages,if you don't have any concrete constructive advice on the subject you have no business of posting here.Keep your opinions for yourself.
 
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slamOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.09.2011, 06:19
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      IgnorantGuru wrote:
But as a start, an officially recommended 'keep it working' procedure would be good enough.

Our official recommend procedure is:

We keep working the software we ship on release, from our own repository, and most of Debian. We cannot and will not "keep working" proprietary closed source software, and software from 3rd party repositories. So, we strongly suggest to stick to the software we support. While some of us might be able and willing to help you some times with software from 3rd parties and closed source stuff in our forums and IRC, there is no guarantee for that. Also keep in mind that while advice or ideas posted from our users can be very funded and helpful, we can guarantee for our team members only.

Besides that, DO NOT DIST-UPGRADE IF APT WOULD REMOVE SOMETHING YOU NEED OR DO NOT UNDERSTAND. This is written several times everywhere, and if you follow it your chances are very high that it "keeps working".

      Spaceferret wrote:
...This tread is dedicated to resolving the conflicting problem in the latest nvidia/xorg packages,if you don't have any concrete constructive advice on the subject you have no business of posting here.Keep your opinions for yourself.
Kelmo is a team member who did tell you in clear words why your expectations cannot be met by us. This was not just opinion, but very much on topic. And telling other people in this forum to "keep their opinions for themselves" is depreciated - please behave.

Greetings,
Chris

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muchan
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.09.2011, 09:58
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      Spaceferret wrote:

Using your own phraseology what really is plain stupid is to post a misleading comment on a subject you don't understand. The root of the problem is that the conflict between nvidia and xorg didn't result in package removal during d-u therefore " 0 packages to be removed " was a green light to proceed with d-u to anyone unsuspecting what will happen next . So you suggestion that
      Quote:

If a du looks like it will break your system
is totally unsubstantiated to anyone who doesn't possess the quality of clairvoyance


Here I see misunderstanding.
When apt-get shows "N packages to be REMOVED", and the will-be removed package are the ones you definitly need,
it is a one of cases sid is broken so you need caution.

There are also cases that apt-get goes with no sign of problem,
but upgraded packages (or sum of them) has serious problems that system can become unusable, or missing some important function you would need.

This "Upgrade Warnings" is forum for that, and this thread is made to warn you that there is problem with nvidia and XOrg.

And so far this thread is not marked [Solved].
(That means there is not a green light yet.)
 
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SpaceferretOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.09.2011, 13:11



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muchan wrote :
      Quote:

Here I see misunderstanding.
When apt-get shows "N packages to be REMOVED", and the will-be removed package are the ones you definitly need,
it is a one of cases sid is broken so you need caution.

That's a good prove team members don't even pay attention to user's postings.[quote]
" 0 packages to be removed "is what I wrote
slam wrote :

      Quote:

DO NOT DIST-UPGRADE IF APT WOULD REMOVE SOMETHING YOU NEED OR DO NOT UNDERSTAND. This is written several times everywhere, and if you follow it your chances are very high that it "keeps working".

"no packages to be removed" again I repeat it.
If that is the case with proprietary drives why don't you guys make it explicitly in aptosid policy that nvidia softaware is out of questions and remove all references from aptosid manual ? That would give a better idea to all those considering using aptosid.
 
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muchan
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.09.2011, 13:46
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Spaceferraet,
You intentionary quote a part and omit the very point of my post, so your argument is not taken seriously.

(the team member who cared more about proprietary driver has left the team, so maybe it's
true that manual should say using proprietery driver, when broken, may not be supported by
the team. I agree to this point.)
 
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trcOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.09.2011, 14:16



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I'm on regular Sid and the nvidia blob works fine for me right now.

The nouveau driver however does not work at all. (have a Geforce GTS 360m laptop gpu card)
 
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drbOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.09.2011, 14:19



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@trc

Which versions of xorg and nvidia blob are you using?

infobash -v3 output would be helpful
 
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IgnorantGuruOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.09.2011, 14:27



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Probably this is mostly a problem for whoever packages the nvidia driver for sid, or whoever repackages it for Aptosid. It seems it's their responsibility to ensure their package works, or to not package a broken driver. And to release notes regarding any issues. If that's not handled well, there isn't much Aptosid can do except repackage it, and it sounds like they don't have anyone willing or able to do so. Fair enough.

I'm not suggesting there is anything the Aptosid team HAS to do with nvidia - they don't HAVE to do anything. We're just letting them know what we could use. It is part of Debian practices to work with closed source software as well as open source - that's part of the Debian Contract. So I don't understand all the attitude about it. If no one on the Aptosid team wants to address this in any way, so be it. But there is nothing wrong with requesting support and advice, and I think the rude and obnoxious comments are out of line. If you think ego and arrogance make you sound smart, guess again - it makes you sound petty and frightened.

I don't have any problem with suspending DUs for a time, as long as the problem is addressed at some point. Obviously if it takes too long then Aptosid is no longer a viable choice for the considerable fraction of users who rely on the closed source drivers (for all the various reasons already stated). But thus far in my use of Aptosid, any serious problems with nvidia have been resolved within a reasonable time frame - good enough. The main challenge has been understanding what is happening, and for some users, being alerted to the risk of breakage - hence the request for greater feedback. Yet a request is not a demand.

I also recommend a backup solution as it makes upgrades far less stressful. This method is my favorite. Before every DU, I backup the Aptosid partition (takes 5 minutes). If things break, I roll it back (another 5 minutes), check the forum, and wait until it looks promising to try again. The result is a fairly stable system. I've always used this approach to rolling release, and it's always required occasionally in my experience. Frankly, I can't imagine using a rolling release without it.

Yet Aptosid is the first distro I've used that has such repeating problems with the nvidia driver - it seems a weakness specific to Aptosid and not shared by other distros I've used. Probably the explanation that no one on the team uses it personally is the reason. Like it or not, a distro's handling of closed source video drivers in Linux does affect the overall usability of the distro. I know in supporting software, I often resolve issues that don't affect me personally - that's part of software support. So the Aptosid team may want to consider that ignoring the issue degrades the quality of their product for many users. Drivers are a special case regarding closed source due to the limited availability of inexpensive Linux-friendly hardware - that's why most distros make efforts to work with it. That's not saying they are obligated to address it, however.

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slamOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.09.2011, 14:28
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      trc wrote:
I'm on regular Sid and the nvidia blob works fine for me right now.

The nouveau driver however does not work at all. (have a Geforce GTS 360m laptop gpu card)
GeForce GTS 360M (0x0CB1) is fully supported by the Nouveau driver since long time. However, the Nvidia driver needs to be completely removed (not just de-installed) together with all it's changes to Xorg, mesa, etc. before Nouveau can load. Please take your time to follow exactly [url]our HowTo[/url]. Feel free to start a fresh support topic if you need help with that task.
Greetings,
Chris

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slamOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.09.2011, 14:48
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      IgnorantGuru wrote:
...Yet Aptosid is the first distro I've used that has such repeating problems with the nvidia driver - it seems a weakness specific to Aptosid and not shared by other distros I've used. Probably the explanation that no one on the team uses it personally is the reason
The reason is simple: By using Debian sid as a base directly, we are the first to get hit from bugs in the Nvidia blob with almost every major upgrade of Xorg since many years. The blob beeing a blob makes us unable to fix those bugs. This is not our "arrogance" or unfriendlyness - we are simply not able to do it, only the Nvidia employed programmers can do so. That's what we every time have to wait for. Most other distros are using the same Xorg packages long time after they have passed Debian Sid, and until then the Nvidia bugs are usually fixed.

I know about at least 3 people in our dev team who do use the Nvidia driver, by the way.

Greetings,
Chris

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Last edited by slam on 13.09.2011, 14:51; edited 1 time in total
 
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IgnorantGuruOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: 13.09.2011, 14:50



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      slam wrote:
Our official recommend procedure is:

We keep working the software we ship on release, from our own repository, and most of Debian. We cannot and will not "keep working" proprietary closed source software, and software from 3rd party repositories. So, we strongly suggest to stick to the software we support.


Thanks for your reply. As someone else pointed out, you don't really 'strongly suggest' that, as your manual includes instructions for closed source drivers without so much as a warning about the statement you just made above. So that is somewhat misleading to those considering Aptosid.

Also note that most distros support closed source drivers, even if they don't support other closed source software, due to the limited availability of devoted Linux hardware and lack of manufacturer support. It is a special case and I think your team would do well to reconsider your excluding closed source driver support. But I understand that you have limited resources, so perhaps that's a limitation we just need to live with for now. Fair enough. But all the hostility toward users requesting support is unprofessional. A simple 'no' suffices, and IMO it would be good to more clearly and accurately document what you do and don't support in Aptosid.

From the manual:
      Quote:
aptosid is made up of 2 words, Firstly apto which is a Latin word which means to fit, adapt, adjust, make ready, or fit. The second word is sid and is the codename of Debian's unstable branch.

aptosid is an operating system based on the Linux kernel and the GNU project, with applications/programs from Debian unstable/sid and we hold fast to the core values and social contract of Debian.

You no longer need to wait for a new release to always have the latest of anything, including kernels. Once you have installed aptosid, followed by all your favourite programs/applications, all it needs is a dist-upgrade, which is a system-wide software update from debian and specialist packages from aptosid.

This means that re-installing yet another release every 6+ months on your PC is unnecessary with aptosid, as the daily, weekly or monthly dist-upgrade brings everything up-to-date.

It is worth noting, as aptosid uses Debian's unstable branch and due to the very nature of 'Sid', you will need to be prepared to use the Terminal/cli.

With the 'way of aptosid', you will be always up to date and have the very best that aptosid together with Debian 'sid' can offer.


From the Debian Social Contract:
      Quote:
We acknowledge that some of our users require the use of works that do not conform to the Debian Free Software Guidelines. We have created "contrib" and "non-free" areas in our archive for these works. The packages in these areas are not part of the Debian system, although they have been configured for use with Debian. Thus, although non-free works are not a part of Debian, we support their use and provide infrastructure for non-free packages...


So given your statement above and the rather extreme view your team takes on any closed source driver use, it sounds like the way you advertise, define, and document Aptosid is not accurate.

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